Does Bitcoin -> Monero -> Bitcoin, help with getting Bitcoin more anonymously?

Hello,

As the title describes I want to know whether buying Bitcoin with a normal exchange (that requires ID), converting to Monero and then converting back to Bitcoin is a good way to get close to anonymous Bitcoin.

My main objective is to get Bitcoin as anonymously as possible in order to pay for services like ProtonMail, ProtonVPN, Mullvad or to buy from proxysto.re.

As long as it is pretty difficult for the Bitcoin to be tied back to me, I will be happy.

Thanks,
M

I don’t know much about crypto, but that sounds like it would be hard to trace back to you.

You could also mine monero

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Thank you for your answer. I was thinking about mining monero but I think the cost of mining would outweigh the amount I would actually get.

Yes, that’s true

Oke here is what you can do:

Step1 : Buy bitcoin through KYC exchange
Step 2: Create a new BTC wallet (decentralized, like exodus)
Step 3: Send your BTC from the exchange to the wallet
Step 4: Make sure that everything from your new wallet is routed through TOR (exodus also supports TOR, but I prefer running everything in a VM -whonix-
Step 5: Use a swap service like chanenow.io or others to exchange your btc to XMR.
Step 6: Make a XMR wallet on whonix in which you will receive your swapped XMR
Step 7: Of course the exchange claims they do not keep logs/wallet adresses and whatever, but we never know for sure, so again make another XMR wallet in which you will send the swapped XMR to.
Step 8: Now this XMR needs to be swapped again back to BTC, so make another BTC wallet which will receive the swapped XMR coins
Step 9: Again use a swap service to make the swap happen
Step 10: Now you receive swapped bitcoin on an anonymous decentralized btc wallet

The bitcoin that you have in that wallet is not possible to be linked/related to your original KYC ID.

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It’s not the best way to obfuscate bitcoins, the problem here are amounts. Let’s say you bought 0.00123456 KYC bitcoins, then swap them for x XMR and swap them again, you’ll get ~0.00123456 BTC. The amounts on the bitcoin ledger are linkable.
If you can’t use monero for payments just use samourai wallet and mix those sats with whirlpool.

Would sending smaller amounts fix this, e.g.:

  1. Buy 1 btc
  2. Transfer 0.25 btc to xmr
  3. Repeat step 2 (vary amount each time)

Nope, still 0.25 → XXX → ~0.25

Thank you so much for this solution. I also did some research and was wondering if I was to buy Monero through localmonero.co (with no personal information) and use a physical Amazon/Steam gift card I purchased in-store with cash to purchase the Monero, and then exchanged the Monero for Bitcoin, would that also be an another option? As then there would be no link to my ID as there is no KYC.

  1. This is an extremely more expensive and fragile system than just use samourai with whirlpool. It has many more points of failure;
  2. There is the linkable outputs issue;
  3. Don’t use exodus, it’s proprietary crap.

BTW samourai uses tor by default.

Hmmm

After what happened with wasabi wallet and their mixing service I don’t trust mixing services at all, blockchain analyse firms will probably end up figuring it out sooner or later just like with wasabi.

My method is maybe a bit more time consuming, but if you time it right and do it right its waterproof. When you want (per example) 0.5 btc ‘washed’ you could swap the whole 0.5 in 1 time, after that you swap it back into bitcoin between several time spawns. No need to swap it back directly as 0.5.

And yes don’t use exodus, its crap (I was meant to say electrum).

Wasabi had refused to fix known vulnerabilities as this article points out. Honestly I don’t know if their protocol is still flawed. Anyway chainanalisys didn’t figure out anything new.

Well, you really have to know what you are doing to carefully leverage this method, because you are leaving behind so much metadata and involving untrusted third party exchanges. In this case and for this threat model, a well implemented coinjoin is the right choice, all assuming you can’t use xmr (btw proxysto.re accepts xmr :thinking:)

And the word “washed” means converting money obtained from illicit activities to money from legitimate sources, this is just obfuscating funds.

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Thank you for this answer. I actually realised that proxysto.re accepts monero after I posted but just decided to just leave it in.

I think that the other solutions provided in this topic are quite complicated, as I am quite new to Crypto, I am also not trying to do anything illegal (obviously) but I just want to be able to get Bitcoin as privately/anonymously as possible.

In my previous post I said;

I personally think this is a good option, as it is easy and requires no KYC.

I just want to make sure that it is actually a good option before I use it.

It all depends on how you are exchanging the Monero to Bitcoin, that’s your weakest link. Why don’t you skip a step and just buy Bitcoin locally directly instead of through a KYC-required exchange, there are sites like LocalMonero for Bitcoin as well.

I haven’t done much research on it and I don’t know how gift cards works in depth, but if you buy them with cash and trade them online for crypto you are essentially buying crypto with cash and without an ID. Which is good.

For what I understood your idea is basically this: cash → xmr → btc.

You are already using a private medium of exchange at the beginning (cash and gift cards) I don’t see the need to add a monero hop.

You could just buy bitcoins with gift cards on agoradesk, which is localmonero for bitcoin, and then mix them. At the end you’ll have bitcoins without a pre-mix history.

I think the most difficult part is finding someone that accepts gift cards for crypto.

On localmonero.co I have actually already found a trader who accepts Steam & Amazon gift cards, they also look quite good as they have had over 800 trades and also almost no negative feedback.

My main reason for the Monero hop is that I have already found a good trader.

I was planning to exchange the Monero to Bitcoin in one of two ways;

  1. Using sideshift.ai - no account or sign-up required.
  2. Using localmonero.co’s recive a different currency when sending.

I will take into consideration buying from a Bitcoin version of LocalMonero.

I’ve just had quick look on agoradesk and found one trader that will accept Gift Cards for Crypto in my country. They have done over 20000 trades with a 100% feedback score.

So, just to clarify, it is best if I buy Bitcoin directly from agoradesk with a Gift Card, instead of buying Monero first and then exchanging?

Also, can you explain what you mean when you say;

Thanks.

It’s redundant, it adds little to no privacy and you’ll pay more in fees/exchange rates, but you can do that.

Due to the trasparent nature of the Bitcoin ledger every bitcoin (UTXO) has a history that is composed of every transaction made by every previous owner. To break the link with this history, which is permanently recorded on the blockchain, you have to mix your coins. See whirlpool for more detailed informations. The most important advantage is preventing who sells the coins to track your spendings and it also adds a degree of fungibility.

You’re welcome!

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I’d say using (possibly multiple) change addresses is probably enough. When you pay to services, they generate unique addresses for you to send to anyways so its not really publicly advertised that you paid for protonmail or something

PS: or you can use samourai wallet with its cool features